A Glass Ceiling Over the Arena

Wednesday, May 9, at 12 noon, U.S. Eastern time. The discussion on May 2 has been postponed because of illness

Linda Jean Carpenter is a professor emerita at Brooklyn College of the City University of New York. With R. Vivian Acosta she has published for nearly 30 years an annual study of female players and coaches, Women in Intercollegiate Sport. Ms. Carpenter coached gymnastics at Brooklyn College. Like Ms. Carpenter, Ms. Acosta has spoken and written extensively on issues related to Title IX and is a professor emerita at Brooklyn College. She is a past president of the National Association for Girls and Women in Sport. While at Brooklyn, she coached several teams, including women's basketball, volleyball, and softball.

A transcript of the chat follows.

Robin Wilson (Moderator):
    Hi, everyone. I'm Robin Wilson, a senior writer at The Chronicle. I want to thank all of you for joining us today-- and for coming back again this week after the chat was postponed. We are pleased to have Linda Carpenter and Vivian Acosta as our guests -- offering their many years of expertise and personal experience in women's intercollegiate sports. They'll bring their unique perspectives to your questions on this important subject. Linda and Vivian, welcome.

Linda Jean Carpenter:
    We are very pleased to be with you today and look forward to our discussion. We are also grateful for your patience with the postponement from last week. Thanks for joining the discussion today. Linda and Vivian

Robin Wilson (Moderator):
    Let's get to our first question.

Question from Megan Valentine, MacMurray College:
    While I understand that utilizing flex-time will not entirely eliminate the long hours that the coaching profession requires, I argue that an administration that supports the utilization of flex-time will in turn produce coaches who feel that they have a little more control over their lives (i.e., professional, family, personal, etc.). Flex-time seems to have helped to create more satisfied employees in "big business." What are your thoughts on how flex-time could contribute to increased numbers of women in coaching?

R. Vivian Acosta:
    Creativity inside a profession that eats time as voraciously as does coaching is always a valuable tool. Flex time, as well as other strategies for freeing or rearranging time expenditures in ways that provide a bit more personal control over professional, family, and personal lives, is something that would be useful to pursue in the field of coaching and indeed, in some situations, might work admirably well.

The potential impact of effective and creative time-use techniques on increasing the numbers of women in coaching ranks is likely to be subtle. First, better time use may help retain women in the coaching ranks who would otherwise leave to pursue a 'saner' life. Better time use may also result in more personally and professionally content, less frazzled coaches. As these coaches serve as professional role models for their athletes, athletes considering coaching as a profession might have a more positive view regarding the personal cost of being a coach.

Additionally, a coach who has control over her own professional life and thus perhaps her own personal life due to creative time usage might also be more likely to think more broadly about how to reach out to potential future coaches both on her own teams as well as in the local high schools.

Whatever the extent of the positive results of creative time management, there is no down side. If it retains female coaches in the profession, great! If it also provides a picture of a more appetizing professional choice for future coaches, GREAT!

Question from Rosie Stallman formerly NCAA - Director of Education/presently President of Project Fundraise:
    Women across the nation have expressed the isolated feeling in athletics. The lack of support, role models, information distribution and lack of empowerment. The consistent question has been - "How do I get the President of the University to hear my concerns when the AD will not allow me to communicate with anyone but him?"

R. Vivian Acosta:
    Your question has two parts: (1) interdepartmental communication and (2) cross-campus communication. Let's talk about the cross-campus one first.

The realities of campus life for those in the athletics department as well as those in any 'academic' department are that respect and a listening ear are only given to those we have worked with and we know. Therefore, it is essential that anyone wanting to be respected and listened to on campus find ways to work with and know people on campus. Doing so is particularly difficult for folks in the athletics department because 1) their time constraints are so severe and 2) they are often overlooked when campus committees are being formed, etc.

We are however, often our own worst enemies. We seldom attend campus functions outside of athletics. When we do, some of us wear our warm-ups, talk about nothing besides athletics, run screaming from any new responsibility involving campus issues outside of athletics because we perceive ourselves as too busy already, and generally isolate ourselves. Some athletics programs have intentionally distanced themselves from the broader campus mission in order to avoid prying eyes or accountability.

Then when it comes time to have the campus administration understand our needs, our struggles, or our politics, we have no access to listening ears. So: serve on those seemingly boring committees, make professional friends across campus, see yourself as those across campus might be perceiving you and make appropriate changes, and make time/take time to build bridges BEFORE you need to cross them. Of course there are the easy ways such as inviting cross campus folks to sit on the bench, etc. but you need to do the harder, more time consuming, fully-engaged-in-campus -life things too if you want to have listening ears and respect come your way. Athletics is, or at least should be, part of the entire campus enterprise. We cannot dare the rest of the campus to think of us that way however, we need to be sure that we really are part of the entire campus enterprise.

Regarding an AD who doesn't want to have you talking to the president: Be sure that you understand the chain of command. Ask yourself why the AD is blocking you. Is it because the AD wants to control all communication or just what you have to say because your message is contrary to the message from the AD? Regardless of the reason for being blocked, if you are known and respected on campus, not just as a coach but as a contributor to the entire campus endeavor, your voice and concerns will always have access.

Question from Robin Wilson:
    Linda and Vivian, after interviewing many, many coaches for my piece, I came to think that the problem was not just when coaches are expected to work, but the sheer number of hours they are expected to put in. Is there anything that can be done about that? Does one person really have to be responsible for so many aspects of the job? Many coaches told me: "This is a 24/7 job" But who really wants a job like that -- particularly if you also have other responsibilities in your life.

Linda Jean Carpenter:
    Yes, coaching is a 24/7 type of job. And the comment, "Who wants a job like that - particularly if you also have other responsibilities in your life" is commonly heard. There is an intangible part to coaching that makes people like and love such a difficult and taxing job. In the 'old days' when women volunteered to coach on top of a full teaching load plus whatever extra responsibilities came our way at home simply because we are women, women coached. They coached not for the pay, not for the power - both were absent. They coached for the joy of having a positive impact on student athletes.

Because the coaches came often from the ranks of teachers, they already had a bit of the taste of that joy of interacting with students in positive ways. Today's potential coaches often come from non-teaching backgrounds and without tasting the joy of coaching, would likely ask themselves the "Who would want . . . " question.

The presence of full time assistant coaches of women's teams is growing. As it grows, the heavy burdens of coaching are able to be shared by more than one person thus making the weight of coaching more tolerable. Men's teams have long enjoyed full time assistant coaches. Women's teams have not.

Athletic administrators need to realize that equitable provision of full time coaches is also required by Title IX as well as common sense. Graduate assistants as assistant coaches are helpful but full time assistant coaches are much MORE helpful to relieve the burdens of coaching.

Question from Amy Sandler, University of Nevada - Las Vegas:
    What role does stereotyping and a homophobic climate play in the decline of women coaching women's sports?

Linda Jean Carpenter:
    The number of female professionals in athletics who have not suffered from stereotyping or a homophobic climate could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Stereotyping and homophobia are very effective and very hurtful tools usable by those who are either insecure about sharing the perceived 'male domain' of athletics or who are simply willing to use any tool, regardless of cost, to gain an advantage. Such tools are used without regard to truth nor to impact. Shame on anyone who even contemplates using them.

We need to gain some maturity both as a society and as professionals in the field of athletics: we need to put away the 'win at all cost' mentality which brings some people to use such tools.

Does stereotyping and homophobia play a role in the declining percentage of women serving as coaches in women's sports? Yes.

The hours are long, the pay is low, (the pay is discriminatorily low in many situations) plus the female coach has to be willing to expose herself to accusations which are either nobody's business and/or which are totally without defense by the erroneously accused. We can think of very few other accusations which have such a fully negative impact against the victim and which are so totally without defense whether or not the accusations are based in truth.

In a post Title IX world many more professional doors are now open to young women. It is logical that coaching, with its low pay and long hours, might be appealing only to those who have tasted the joy of working with athletes and find value in the endeavor beyond pay and time. Add to the negatives of low pay and long hours one additional negative of stereotyping and homophobia and the potential coach may decide to walk through a different professional door than the one that leads to coaching. This is a great loss to our nation's young female athletes who need and have a right to have female role models in such an important and intense part of their lives.

Again, shame on anyone who uses stereotyping and homophobic innuendoes. Anyone who does use these tools needs to be honest enough to see themselves as they are: totally unprofessional and without a scrap of integrity.

Question from Diane, division I califiornia university:
    Why is it said we want qualified women and men are always assumed to be qualified? With current laws, how can we target female candidates and hire females to coach females?

R. Vivian Acosta:
    Words matter.

Your first question carries the answer with it. The addition of the term 'qualified' assumes that there are few who are qualified. The same added verbage often plagues things such as the "Final Four" versus the "Women's Final Four" as though the women's championship was of less value or interest than the 'real' final four. Many schools refer to their men's teams as the _--_ (name of school) basketball team while their women's teams are referred to as the "Lady" _--_(name of school) team. The impact, regardless of the overt intent, is to demean or demote or devalue the entity to which the modifier is attached. It works well . . . and subtly.

Do you recall when you and your sibling were both eager to consume the last piece of cake? Mom would often have one of us cut the piece of cake into two pieces and the other one of us chose which piece to eat. We all got very good at cutting the piece into two equal, and equally acceptable pieces. Perhaps those who would say that the addition of the modifier is of no consequence might feel otherwise if the modifier was always added to comments about them and their programs. For instance, the Gentlemen Hoosiers, the Final Four (meaning women's final) and the Men's Final Four etc.

Let's either avoid modifiers totally, or apply them to both sides of the equation: Men's Final Four and Women's Final Four.

Regarding the use of 'qualified' as a modifier to describe potential applicants for coaching positions, we need to realize that no administrator should knowingly hire a non-qualified coach of either sex. Therefore, how about dropping the term 'qualified' to describe a particular segment of the applicant pool? Sounds good to us. Words DO matter.

Your second question about how to target female candidates and find ways to increase their success is a good one to which, sadly, there are no easy answers. There is no single, one-time fix to the issue but instead there are many pieces. Among them are:

1. Increase the salaries of coaches of women's teams and female coaches (both are artificially held down). Potential coaches would be more willing to consider coaching as a career if it did not carry with it poverty as well as hassle.


2. Recruit female coaches in the same way that coaches for men's teams are recruited: find out who the best female coach is and what it will take to bring her to campus. This type of recruitment is what both encourages people to apply (never a fun process) and also it is what causes salaries and perks to rise.


3. Apply for jobs. Female coaches should apply for job openings even if they have no strong inclination to take the 'new' job. One never knows- the job may turn out to be enticing. The presence of female applicants forces the hiring administrator to realize that the pool of candidates is broad and deserves strong recruitment efforts.


4. Help young women consider coaching as a career. Current college coaches reaching to the high schools and junior high schools at career day events, campus visits, etc. letting potential coaches understand what is involved in coaching and what training is needed, would help.


5. Invite local Girl Scout troupes to an overnight sport camp where your team members serve as clinic experts. Both sides of the equation learn that coaching can be a rewarding and fulfilling career. Lasell College in Massachusetts has run such programs very successfully. It is a win-win because the college gains by having local students consider applying as students when they graduate from high school, the college's athletes gain experience in teaching and coaching, and the facilities and logistics are easy for a sleepover in the gym.


6. Start applying for jobs as coaches of men's teams. Only 2% of the coaches of men's teams are females. Female coaches need to be perceived as 'coaches' not merely potential coaches of women's teams.


7. Continuation and expansion of such excellent programs as the NACWAA HERS Institutes (see: NACWAA.org) and the Women's Coaches Academy. Both involve intense training and educational experiences for female coaches and administrators. Also Jen Shillingford's Snell Institute which engages high school young women in discussions about coaching as a career builds step by step a valuable base.


8. When a job opens on your campus, call some of your female colleagues and encourage them to apply.


9. Increase your own mentoring efforts.


10. Increase the number of female ADs. Homologous reproduction (hiring those who look like ourselves) is alive and well in athletic administrations. Increasing the number of female ADs would help increase the number of female coaches present - at least according to the data which show that the likelihood of having female coaches is greater where the AD is a female. About 1 in five schools has no female voice anywhere in the athletic administration at any level. Increasing the female presence in the administrative structures (not just in the sometimes deadened areas of compliance) would also help.

Question from Sara Lipka, Chronicle of Higher Ed:
    Hello, Linda and Vivian, thanks so much for joining us. I'm wondering if you think any efforts like the NCAA's Coaches Academy, which was designed to develop leadership and coaching opportunities for minority athletes, would help women.

Linda Jean Carpenter:
    Absolutely yes. The Women's Coaching Academy (WCA) provides women with all the tools, skills and confidences which are needed for success. Two programs, the WCA and the NACWAA HERS (more intended for administrative/leadership issues), have made a massive impact. The number of 'graduates' from both programs is large enough now that a true critical mass of networking and trained women exists. We would recommend both programs highly and would recommend that ADs seeking to employ new coaches and/or administrators contact both the WCA and NACWAA to post jobs and seek applicants. On the college level, Smith College sponsors a masters in coaching and administration which is also excellent and which continues to produce graduates of excellence.

Question from Heather Kreier, Pacific Lutheran University:
    Flex time is helpful. However, the sheer load of duties and work can be overwhelming. I think being a female Head coach of Men & Women Cross country, Indoor Track and Field & Outdoor Track and Field makes the load sometime mountainous (6 sports). I am in-season the entire academic year. By the time I get to summer, I am exhausted. I have currently no full-time assistant, so the brunt of everything from travel, recruiting and coaching is on my shoulders. I am married and have a son (9 yrs.) and a daughter (7 yr.). My entire coaching years totals 20+ years. I have been in college coaching for 4 years. I am the only female head coach in my sports in my conference and regionally/nationally I am an island. Very few women hold all my positions. Usually female coaches hold only 1 of my six. With that said, I want to know how can I further empower my success and longevity in my profession. How are my male counterparts doing it? Why not more females? My sport(s) are often forgotten in these discussions, because the focus is always on BB, VB, Soccer, etc. I need some assistance in my situation that is relevant to aid me and future women thinking about cross country and track and field coaching as a profession. I want the brass ring...I want my family my profession and my LIFE.

Linda Jean Carpenter:
    You are amazing! How you do 6 sports is hard to believe. The answer to your question about longevity may be in the number 6. The fact that you are coaching 6 sports may be a function both of your willingness to work extremely hard but also that your school is either paying too little per sport for you to be a full time coach in ONE or TWO sports. We realize the interrelationship of your sports but the school needs to also realize that each is a full time job. If they don't, help them to do so. IF they do, help them help you by providing full time assistants (plural). There comes a time when having it all (6 sports, family, etc) may mean taking a look at the number 6 and paring it down. Your male counterparts are NOT doing it. They don't go home to kids, dishes, etc. They also seldom would even contemplate coaching 6 teams with no full time assistants. Doing it all does not mean doing it all without the help that male counterparts receive. We'd love to hear from you about how your future goes. Stay in touch.

Question from Leah Owczarczak San Diego State University:
    As a former Collegiate Student-Athlete my concern is why do some females prefer to be coached by a male? Does this vibe steer away potential female coaches and is there research being conducted on the reasoning behind the student athletes?

R. Vivian Acosta:
    The preference for a male or female coach is so bound up in the experience an athlete had in a given season that the research that does exist on preferences is of very little value. If an athlete was injured or the team had a losing season, the sex of the coach (which most likely had nothing to do with the impression of the season) may be a variable which is of no importance. Mary Hums, University of Louisville, is doing some interesting studies about the coaching style (as separate from the sex) of the coach. Separating the style from the sex is more likely to provide useful information.

Question from Nancy Bals, Westfield State College:
    What factors are relevant when a supervisor is attempting to make a career more "family friendly" for women and others (in different situations) and wants to hold up the "fairness card," which in turns leads the supervisor to feel like they shouldn't be as flexible?

Linda Jean Carpenter:
    Sometimes, to be fair, one needs to treat people differently. That sounds like a recipe for inequity but if people of good will and focus are making the decisions about trying to be fair and their decisions are open for discussion, fairness does not need to involve INflexibility. The smart and fair administrator should be able to see the need of individuals and provide for the need fairly. Different needs, different solutions. Hope that answers the question. If not, ask more.

Question from Kristen Dieffenbach, West Virginia University:
    The increase in female sport participation opportunities have grown from youth through college. And yet, the number of women coaching at lower levels seems to be even more dire than it is in the collegiate ranks. There seem to be few role models and very little support for women's involvement in developmental sport beyond the 'soccer mom' or team manager roles. Wouldn't improving adult female coaching and ref participation at the younger levels help produce a trickle up effect of women with experience, solid role models, etc which in turn could help increase the number of woman in collegiate sport coaching? Any thoughts on why this hasn't happened and how we can facilitate the change?

R. Vivian Acosta:
    Good question. Somehow college sport has gotten most of the press over the years. The declining representation of women in the high school and community sport areas is even more dire than on the college level. Their presence would help young women start, from a pre-college age, thinking about coaching as a possible career choice. Their presence as role models of skillful, decision making, assertive female role models would also be invaluable to the young women they would be serving. Yes, we agree that increasing the presence of females as coaches and refs for youth programs is a great idea. A number of years ago Philadelphia ran a program for community women to serve as refs. The women were not trained previously in sport but they were supplied training as refs. Perhaps in today's world, a similar, updated program would be of help. Also a bit of pay would help.

Question from Pam Gill-Fisher, UC Davis:
    First, thank you both for the tremendous contributions you have made to the data and research in this area. Your longitudinal study has provided invaluable information in working with campus administrators to create change. My question is whether or not you believe that there is any possibility that there will be a change in the NCAA rules, such as recruiting calendars, out of season practices, and length of seasons, in order to help address this issue? Another idea that I have seen recently is the creation of co-head coaches and splitting responsibilities. My last question is what your thoughts are in creating sabbatical leaves for coaches similar to what faculty are allowed and how this might impact retention rates. Thanks. Pam

Linda Jean Carpenter:
    Thanks for your kind words Pam. They are appreciated. We' re planning another data gathering round and the results (to be 31 years) will be added about December, 2007 to our webpage: http://webpages.charter.net/womeninsport The NCAA's current discussion of life/balance issues is heartening. These issues have an impact on both men and women. The issues are inherent to coaching but perhaps much more significant in the lives of women because of the extra burdens women carry. We have no crystal ball about what the NCAA might do but hope that because the issue impacts both men and women, that discussion will result in action. Sabbatical leaves are wonderful for professors. We wonder however, if coaching is so intense and because students carry over from year to year, unlike teaching that sabbaticals might be more problematic in coaching. Perhaps the offer is more valuable than the reality. Co-head coaching seems to be increasing as a mechanism. When it works well, it can certainly help.

Question from Nancy Hogshead-Makar, Florida Coastal School of Law:
    Hello Vivian and Linda, Thank you for your on-going research and for opening up this discussion broadly. I understand all of the barriers already discussed, and I don't want to make light of them, but how do we get through the perceived notion that -- generally speaking -- men would be better in an athletics leadership position than a woman would. That sport, by valuing traditionally male characteristics like strength, aggression and dominance, naturally lends itself toward the perception that a male would provide the necessary characteristics for winning.

Linda Jean Carpenter:
    Thanks for your kind words. Yes, the perception of sport being a male domain continues, albeit, new generations and more enlightened people are populating the debate and that's a great help. Sport as well as society should value human characteristics such as strength, assertiveness, team work, perseverance and commitment - - all values found in athletics. We have selected a few different terms than your question included to make the point that the definition of sport and the value of sport in today's society is also up for discussion. Equity cannot exist fully in a domain which is fatally flawed. The domain needs a bit of help too. Good question Nancy. Thanks.

Question from Sara Lipka, Chronicle of Higher Ed:
    To what extent do you think unequal pay contributes to the dearth of female coaches? And do you think Pat Summitt's $1-million salary is a milestone to be celebrated?

R. Vivian Acosta:
    Unequal pay, added to the normal all-consuming effort of coaching, plus the special hassles of stereotyping and homophobia which often accompany jobs held by female coaches, makes for a difficult employment milieu. Tools exist to combat discriminatory salaries (Title VII and the Equal Pay Act) but it is often frightening to use the tools for fear of being 'black-balled'. However, we would recommend that all coaches and administrators read the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission's Guidance regarding coaches salaries and the rights and responsibilities relating to them growing out of Title VII and the Equal Pay Act. The million dollar salary mark of Pat Summitt certainly brings attention to a discussion of salaries and salary disparities. That's good. There is little progress without open discussion of issues. However, it is also important to realize that little light is ever focused on the non-high profile coaches and yet the disparity, based on sex of coach and sex of team, exists and has a heavy impact on potential female coaches who might otherwise enter or stay in the field.

Question from Dr. Lori Dewald, EdD, ATC, CHES from Salisbury University:
    Hi, to Vivian an Linda! I have two concerns: (1) involves today's student-athletes (and many of their coaches) not knowing the history of women's sports, especially the AIAW years, that there were women who blazed the trails before the likes of today's successful coaches getting million dollar coaching contracts, and a lack of appreciation by today's female student-athletes for the opportunities that they have as a result of the trail blazers. (2) I am growing increasingly concerned with today's intercollegiate sports lack of preparing their student-athletes for the next phase of their lives once the limelight has faded or even been turned off and they are faced with the real world.

R. Vivian Acosta:
    The old phrase regarding those who fail to understand history are bound to repeat it is applicable to equity in sport as well. We agree that few of today's young women understand either the price that was paid for their ability to participate or the fragility with which that opportunity exists. We're glad that they have the opportunities and have them unfettered from the struggle that preceded them. However, the preservation of those opportunities for their children is in large measure dependent upon such an understanding. Coaches, male and female, as well as administrators, women's studies professors, history teachers and sociologists need to be telling the tale loudly.

Divisions 2 and 3 are perhaps preparing their students better for the post college athletics life than Division 1. The limelight is a bit dimmer in Divisions 2 and 3 and perhaps the athletes thereby gain a broader outlook or don't have their outlook so intently focused only on athletics.

In Division 1 however, coaches and ADs need to realize for both their male and female athletes that their athletes are not subjects to be used and thrown away. There still remains the notion (sometimes only a sham) that athletes in Division 1 are also students. Leaders must be true to the educational mission of their institutions and not be subversives supporting their own power base at the cost of the future lives of their players.

Question from Heather Kreier, PLU:
    When trying to determine what your male counterparts are making for wages, learning their expected duties and whether or not they have full or part-time assistants at other institutions is often a hush-hush proposition. How does one find out this information, if your male peers are keeping it close to the cuff? This information would be helpful to determine an equity issue for women coaches. Information is power, and how do I get more?

R. Vivian Acosta:
    If the institution is public, the records must be public. Freedom of information requests (FOIA) can gain information when just 'nosing around' hasn't worked. However, the person using the FOIA route may be branded 'dangerous' so be careful. A lot of information at any school is available by taking a look at the media guides which list assistant coaches, etc. By combining that information with info gleaned from the EADA (be careful of the EADA information - it is not always accurate) etc, you might be getting a fuller picture. You asked how to get more information. You might make sure that on your own campus you have contacts that respect and know you. They can provide information that you might not be able to get without appearing to be a trouble maker. Best wishes. You are right,information is power

Robin Wilson (Moderator):
    We're about out of time. Linda and Vivian will answer one more question. Thanks to all of you for joining us. And thanks so much to Linda and Vivian for being our guests.

Question from Chris Cruz, Williams College:
    I have recently finished a dissertation that focused on women in collegiate coaching, specifically how the persistent gender issues influence the coaches' professional self. I would like to publish something where I know female coaches will find it. Do you have suggestions as to what journals or magazines target female coaches? Thank you for all you have done and continue to do.

R. Vivian Acosta:
    Chris, thanks for your kind words. We'll just give you a brief reply here and invite you to call or email us so we can talk more fully about publication options. The various coaching associations such as the WBCA, AVCA, etc. would be good places to start. Newsletters of such organizations plus cross-sport organizations such as NAGWS and NACWAA would also be likely spots to include articles targeting coaches. Give us a call or email us at LcarpentBC@aol.com or womeninsport@charter.net